what kind of description is that regarding the procedure required in aiming at someone with a controller!? you must really suck at FPS’ on console. “wait for the aimer to move back to your target?”
the right stick rotates your entire person, keeping the aimer in the center of the screen, just like with a mouse.
games that play this way, where you move an independent aimer around the screen to rotate your view are archaic, and these are NOT the games we discussed during the argument of mouse+keyboard vs. controller.
also: can you name the 20 function keys you need to map as shortcuts on your keyboard? shortcuts to weapons, i guess? strafing? jump? controller gets by just fine

The different in “rotating with mouse” and “rotating with right-stick” is:
* When rotating with mouse, the movement of the mouse in certain direction translate to movement of the character in that direction directly.
* When rotating with “right stick”, the movement of the stick translate only to the acceleration movement of the character in that direction.

So if I push the mouse forward for 3 inches, then my character will look up/down (let’s say …) 60 degrees. But if I push the “right stick” forward, that in no way tells me how much my character will rotate — I still have to time the rotation — and return the stick to up-right position in order to stop the character from rotating.

Here is a VERY simple test: First look straight ahead. Then within 2 seconds(well … let’s say 1.5 ’cause I’m actually pretty good at this), look to your right and then look to your left (turn all the way around) right the way.

******

And as for function keys…. number “1″ to “0″ are usually mapped to a different weapon (although not every game would have 10 weapons at any given time, many come very close. i.e. Many jobs in Wolfenstein ET would use up to 7 of the 10 number keys. Then there is “R” for reload, “F” for “action” (like open doors etc.), “C” for crouch, “X” for “laid down”, “Q” and “E” for looking out of cornors, holding down “shift” for “run”, holding down “tab” for walking slowly.

******

And don’t let me get started on “jump” … How many FPS there are on the console these days that actually let you jump? And why are all the FPS on the console so “slow”? — Because you can’t possibly play FPS with a controller at the speed required to play, say …, Quake III.

When I play a console FPS, of course there is the “I’m not use to using a controller” part that I can help by just more practice. However, there is also the “Why is the game so slow” part that I can’t do anything about. So I say: “I’ll fight all of you using controllers with my keyboard & mouse in Quake III”

yeah, dude… ’cause it takes so long to return the right stick from the edge of its circle to the middle. it’s a journey, that one.

This debate can’t ever really be solved. It all depends what you are used to. I’m willing to bet that there are some PC elitists who would own someone using a controller rather than keyboard and mouse. But I am also more than willing to bet there are people that use controllers who could beat a gamer who uses a keyboard and mouse. It all depends on your skill level and what you are used to.

Also the Xbox controller has 10 possible face keys: left trigger, right trigger, left bumper, right bumper, click left stick, click right stick, X, A, B, and Y. All of which feel more natural to me than memorizing key positions on a keyboard.

All things considered, put us all in a deathmatch, I guarantee it will be very even with Tom or I using controllers and you using a keyboard and mouse.

I hope we can put this to the test some how in the future: If you take two gamers, one who games with sticks and one who games with keyboard, and switch their gear for 3 hours, who would become proficient with what gear? My guess is that the keyboard gamer, be it the pro or the 3-hour noob, dominates the sticks gamer.

I think the keyboard/mouse is instantly adaptable to anybody’s play style, and therefor superior. The resolution on modern mice is so high, reaction times are faster–in many ways, as fast as the player can be. And yes, keyboard shortcuts help a great deal. FPSs had to be pared down and streamlined to work on consoles properly, and I’d say it took this long for gamers to start arguing that the sticks provide better or even equal control.

Can we set this up some how? Is there still a game out there that mixes PC with 360 audiences? I know there used to be, but I remember something about the PC gamers beating the shit out of the console gamers. Wonder why!

[edit: wasn't it one of the Halos?]

Halo has a Mac version, but I don’t know if it can be networked with the XBox version …

if someone wants to get team fortress 2 for pc, or some other shooter, I will lend them/use my ps2 - to - pc/mac adapter, and we can test this out.

i remember when i got my N64 and thought “OMG I HOPE THIS TRIGGER HERE SHOOTS MY GUNS!!”
and sure enough it did. keyboards dont have triggers.

[...] not be at any disadvantage to opponents using a keyboard and mouse, though there is always room for debate on this issue. The game looks good, and if you throw in the fact that it breaks down walls of [...]

To whom it may concern. To the advent of XBOX and XBOX Live. PC FPS were dominate. In fact thtey still are. I have read through various forums and find it sickening how this yonger generation of gamers claim they have the “real mccoy” The Quake serious, Unreal Series, Call of Duty series, Battlefield series, Medal of Honor series, yep you guessed it all had there start on PC. Not console.

What I find today with XBOX is the unlimited amount of mods for the XBOX controller. In fact making them programmable. And you can always tell when someone has one with specific weapons. I.E G3 on Call of Duty 4 etc.

Getting to the main topic. Keyboard or Controller. But have there uses. People complain that the keyboard is uncomfortable. The keyboard takes time to master. And a great “custom” set up. And a high quality optical mouse. My last PC shooter that I played religously was configured with 13 buttons.

Precision is the name of the game, not spray and pray. Overall as mentioned above, take the average FPS player from XBOX give him a controller with a copy of quake III arena and play instagib against a guru.

You will find the true meaning of being “owned” as all of us “old school” PC gamers are concerned.

@ Bryan: they aren’t meant to be used against each other. games are designed for console or designed for pc, and as far as difficulty and competition are concerned, it’s all scaled back to square one with every player using the same peripheral.

every game’s difficulty is equalized to the equipment of the player to ensure that it’s always playable, beatable and as accessible as possible.

a poor player gets owned by the top guns no matter which platform he uses.

@Tom
So what you’re basically saying is console FPSs are made easier than PC FPSs because a control pad sucks so much? I’d have to agree on that point; Take Bioshock as an example, On the PC then you change plasmids the game continues (including all big daddys about to rape you) on the XBOX version, THE GAME FREAKING PAUSES, Why would they program it that way? I guess they have no faith in the console FPS players, TBH I don’t have any either. Still want to see someone try Q3 DeFRaG with a joypad.

@zinya:
well… something like that. not so much easier as different by necessity of the control layout. they deemed it necessary to have the game pause in the console version and not in the pc version. or, with bioshock specifically, the pc version released much after the console version and had lots of different little fixes, so this one quirk may have just been a conscious decision to make the gameplay more fluid. they no longer had the option to fix it on console, but they wanted to make the newest bioshock experience as immersive and complete as possible.

It’s stupid to even compare a controller to keyboard/mouse combo in FPS games.. It’s impossible with a controller to aim so perfect as with a mouse..

When i play CS i feel like im playing a video game. Granted, its fun to have superhuman twitch speed and in terms of video games it does take more skill. But on a console there is no cheating, and everyone is using the same controller, unless youre playing UTIII.

I can see the point about having to push the stick in one direction, and having to cross over to the other direction to look the other way. But if you calculated the time it takes, youre moving half an inch, a skilled player could do it in .25 seconds. A pc gamer may do it in .10 seconds. But aiming is aiming. If youre locked on to a target with either a joystick or a mouse, youre going to get killed.

The whole point of having joysticks is the analog movement and analog aiming. Its slower, so that means its easier to fine point aiming for slower movements as with a sniper rifle. I also hate having to use the keyboard. Youll never need that many hotkeys. You may argue that the mouse is better, but the keyboard part is way less intuitive.

I admit i am biased, ive never played much PC FPS’. Ive probably played less than 10 hours of counter strike, since ive recently switched from a pc to a mac. Ive always been a console gamer since doom for SNES and goldeneye for N64. I honestly dont see why you would not play a console FPS. It is way easier to learn than a keyboard. I have a friend who has waited to play call of duty 4 for PC rather than play it on his PS3. The game is still fun. Never refuse to play a game, especially if its exclusive, because its not on a PC. You only need to look at the success of Halo to see that console games are here to stay. I just hope CoD4 becomes the dominant FPS on all platforms, it probably already is. c’mon, no aiming for counter strike?

Ive played PC FPS games for over 10 years and recently got a PS3 and Battlefield Bad Company. I can honestly say after about 1 - 2 months of playing BFBC I prefer the controller setup anyday over keyboard mouse. The game certainly hasnt been dumbed down to accomodate for the controller, its very challenging.

Sure you might sacrifice a very very very small amount of accuracy and aiming time, but thats an excellent trade off for having all the controls mapped out intuitively on the one controller.

I would challenge any keyboard and mouse user to play BFBC for a month or 2 and tell me it isnt better.

What fps games are there that actually allow cross platform play between the pc and console?
Even better, is there any console that lets you hook up a keyboard & mouse? Why not?
Why aren’t there any youtube videos of 2 people playing split screen against each other? 1 on gamepad the other with keyboard & mouse.
All this talk is pointless.
Just find a game and console that lets you actually pit one control scheme against the other and record it for the world to see!

My money is on keyboard & mouse if the game used is anything originally developed for the PC

Obviously in any game on any platform a n00b will be owned by a vet. But the issue isn’t who will own who, but what is the superior input device for FPS games. With comfort, economy, price, looks all thrown out of the windows, which input device has the best reaction time, best accuracy and gives the player the best control in a FPS? In other words, if you take a pro player that plays Xbox and you take someone like Fatal1ty who is regarded as one of the best FPS gamers for PC, and they play say Quake 4 against each other. You setup an Xbox controller for the PC and configured it how it would be configured for an Xbox, you’re telling me that the Xbox pro would wipe the floor with Fatal1ty, let alone keep up???

Do a youtube search for Quake 3 gameplay for the PC, then show me an Xbox game that has AS FAST gameplay. Post a link of it.

“The game certainly hasnt been dumbed down to accomodate for the controller, its very challenging.
Sure you might sacrifice a very very very small amount of accuracy and aiming time”

The very small amount lost is due to consoles having auto-aim.
Lose the auto-aim and use a controller and you wont hit with anything that requires any persicion, atleast in a meaningful amount of time.
(okay, haven’t played the game, so if it doesn’t have -any- auto-aim, then “very challenging” would be “cakewalk” on a mouse)

Lots of people get hung out on keyboards when talking “mouse & keyboard vs controller” which is not the point, Mouse is the part that makes the combo superior.

While in UT for example a gamepad user might be good enough in a rocket arena match even if he didn’t have auto aim, speed and accuracy of a mouse would smoke him in an insta-gib match.

Another trick you can’t do with a controller is running in a corridor with someone behind you, jump, turn 180, throw a grenade/rocket/whatever, turn 180, hit the ground and keep running without missing a step.
Best i’ve managed (or seen) so far on a console game is: jump, do ~130, run into wall, get fragged.

Controllers are okay for fps, but they need auto-aim to balance for the inherent issues with aiming to be comparable with mouse, and then you’re not the one doing the aiming and can’t exactly boast about how accurate you are. (Not to mention you’re still dealing with the issue of turning speed)

To summarize: You wanna play with auto-aim and you don’t worry about turning fast, controllers or mouse will work just fine. If you want to play without auto-aim, with the players doing the aiming instead of the software (and i’m talking -no- auto-aim, not the “almost not auto-aim” that some games have on the hardest settings where you need to aim atleast over the shoulder to hit the head(instead of the ballpark like with easy modes)), you’ll need a mouse to be competitive. (even trackball users admit that mouse is more accurate, though tb is better for looking around)

P.S. Note that i didn’t talk about keyboards, what you have in the other hand is less relevant imho (keyboard vs controller is pretty even, for fps atleast), hell, a mouse + controller combo might be the best setup, except that i don’t think there are all that many controllers with several buttons on the left side.. well, atleast it could work for the lefties

P.P.S. Just realized an easier way to make my point… Would you play an FPS on a keyboard, without a mouse? Ofc not, that’s too 10 years ago. So why would you do it with a controller? (unless you have to ‘cos the game isn’t out on pc) And before you say it, the analog sticks vs buttons isn’t the savior, you still hit the limit that you can only turn as fast as the game lets you, vs the mouse you can do a 720 degree turn in 0.5s if you damn well feel like it

PPPS. One more for the road, I personally don’t have a problem playing fps with a controller(anymore), as long as there’s some auto-aim sweetness, and i’m playing the solo campaign, not aiming in the general direction of other players and pulling the trigger doing headshots,

zomg… great wall of text attack!

Sorry for the above

any recent fps like call of duty can be played with an xbox controller on windows. if some of you have any doubts that there is no comparison between a controller and a mouse/keyboard plug the controller to a pc and try it. even in a noob server you will get owned.

I recently got a ps3 and finnaly decided to buy an fps (resistance 2) i had tried them before on friend’s consoles but reserved judgment until i had time to get used to it.

if that guy who keeps talking about quake remembers the patch in quake2 that gave us freeaim he would know it also took some time to get used to the mouse coming back from only keyboard.

my veredict, the move from keyboard to keyboard/mouse took time but proved to be better in every way
keyboard/mouse to controller.

well it’s the only way to play some of the best story driven fps being made lately, and i can trade accuracy and speed for the confort of playing in a couch instead of hunched behind a desk all night long,

still no console game will ever get you the adrenaline rush you get from an 1on1 in quake3 with headphones roaming the map and keeping an eye on the timer for the next red armor spawn railgunning someone behind you mid air and still air strafe to the nearest platform..

I don’t think the PC versus console argument is about which is better, its more complex than that. Its more about which is better for which situation. I have both a PC setup and Xbox 360 and have the following games for both: COD4, Fear, GOW, Crysis, Crysis WH, NFS (Most Wanted and Carbon) and a few others. And I enjoy both versions of each game. Yes for sure, the keyboard/mouse wins the FPS battle because it allows for faster and more precise aiming. The console versions are enjoyable too but I find fast and accurate aiming is not as easy as with the mouse. And it has nothing to do with one device being better than the other. My FPS skills are quite average (experienced, not a noob but clans aren’t beating down my door either) It has more to do with (where FPSs’ are concerned) the mouse/keyboard seem a more natural extension of one’s limbs. Fast and precise aiming and manoevring requires less effort. On the other hand I prefer car racing on the Xbox 360, the console seems to provide a better, more controllable driving experience. Another thing, while sniping enemy AI is an absolutely orgasmic experience on the PC–you play ALONE, no one else in the room or the house shares your wonderful experience unless you have a LAN. The Xbox 360 provides a better social gaming experience. You can play split-screen co-op with your partner, family members or friends. Not to mention its cheaper, you don’t have to keep upgrading your video card (or various components, or the whole PC) every year (and yes its expensive) or worry about whether or not this or that new game is going to run on your PC.

Sorry made a mistake. I don’t have a console version for Crysis and Warhead, that was a typing mistake. Cheers.

sak3r: You’re right about Quake 3 Arena. I love that game, used to play it heaps. Even though I mostly play COD4 mp (up till recently) I still consider Q3A to be the FPS that determines the “fastest and deadliest gun in the West” No other game (no, not even the Unreal Tournament series or Counterstrike) comes close.

Personally I think a controller player would kill a M&K player, as far as aiming goes Mouse may be more accurate but controller allows more fluent movement that can’t be matched by a M&K

I was having a debate with some work colleagues in our work forum about this exact same thing and I typed out an explanation which I hopes make sense. I’ll copy and paste it below, a little bit of it won’t make sense because certain parts are in reply to someone else’s argument, e.g. someone mentioned that a mouse was designed to be use on a flat screen and can only move in 2 dimensions. Part of my argument is in reply to that, sorry about the long post.

Mouse and keyboard is better by FAR. Hence the reason that some games that allow PC players to go up against 360 players actually make the targeting harder for PC players and give a “lock-on” effect for the 360 players just to even out the playing field. If you openly admit that a mouse and keyboard would give you the advantage (like I THINK Spleen has been trying to do in his posts) then yes I fully agree, and thats the reason that using a mouse and keyboard is better, because you can play to your maximum capability.

Lets remember, the crosshair on your FPS moves DIRECTLY in relation to where you move your hand, exactly what you need for a shooting game. Lets say I wanted to spin my character 90 degrees to the left to shoot an enemy, it just takes a short movement of my mouse to the left to do this. On a pad, you have to hold an analogue stick to the left position, wait for your character to rotate the amount of degrees you desire, and then leave go of the analogue stick. that method if aiming is FAR shitter than using a mouse.

With regards to the argument of a cursor being used for a flat screen, yes that is true, and the reason Pico’s argument about the keyboard being used to navigate through the other axis was misunderstood is because it is difficult to fully explain but I’ll try and make it simpler.

The easiest way to think of it in an FPS game, is that your cursor does not move a single degree, in fact it remains in the centre at all times. What you’re actually doing is controlling a static items viewpoint within a fully three dimensional virtual environment. What the arrows on the keyboard do is allow that item to move within that environment in a direction that depends on what your character’s viewpoint is at the time. Now compared to a pad, lets say the left stick is for movement (equivalent to keyboard) and the right stick is for aiming (equivalent to mouse), the control system still has to be used in the same way as the keyboard and mouse, each stick can only be used for the SAME puspose. The ONLY advantage I could think of is that the movement stick could be pressure sensitive therefore controlling the movement speed of your character rather than just the set running speed of pressing the “w” key on the keyboard. The only way this could ever be matched is if pressure sensitive keys for a keyboard were made, however, this makes no difference anyway because the aiming accuracy of a mouse outweighs that by about a trillion?

Lets say you’re aiming a real gun, where you aim the gun is directly related to your own movement and ability to aim. Using a mouse to aim is the only thing that can come close to this. Holding something down until a crosshair finally meets its target and then having to leave go so the cross hair stops is nothing like aiming.

There’s no other easier way I have of explaining this, sorry about the long post.

W - you’re full of sh1t.

A M&K player would own you, mouse is not “may be more accurate”, IT IS MORE ACCURATE, as gaming mice develop, they are getting more accurate with more buttons them to do a multitude of other things.

Couple your mouse with one of these: http://www.comptorg.com.ua/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/belkin_n52te_news.jpg

Goodbye Controller player, you’re dead.

Anyone who makes an argument for a controller is just ignorant or too poor to own a capable computer(for FPS’s of course, other game types may be and usually are better with controller).

FPS’s are ABOUT accuracy. The guy who posted before me must dance around right before he gets sniped. Well atleast you had great movement while you were spraying bullets into the sky. Right? Get real.

This has already been proven when old quake players were able to force their quake game to play on the psx network servers.

The result. Lots of whiny PSX players crying foul because their were getting demolished in the worst way. Why do you think these networks are kept separate. Don’t delude yourself into thinking there is a remote chance that controllers could beat out the keyboard mouse when all other factors are the same.

Stupid question; does auto aim work in multiplayer on console, for instance in CoD4 or Killzone 2?
I automatically assumed it didn’t, because it’s lame. But if it does, it certainly explaines why I get my ass kicked on console MP, while I can always get by on PC after a while (I NEVER use auto aim, it feels too much like cheating).
Maybe it doesn’t, and I just can’t get used to a controller for FPS.

As someone who’s played both, the main factors are precision and speed. Just like another commenter wrote, there’s no way to jump, 180 and fire, then 180 again so that you’re hitting the ground running the same way you were. A console controller turns too slowly.

If someone sneaks up behind you on a console, you’re just dead. You can’t spin around fast enough, the controls don’t permit it. At least not on any PS3 FPS I’ve played, or Xbox 360 FPS. With a keyboard/mouse combo, the mouse permits ultra fast movement (based on how you set your sensitivity anyway). You can spin circles WAY faster with a mouse than you can with a console controller thumb stick. That’s just fact (at this point in time) and I prefer it.

That being said I enjoy the PS3 because it’s cheaper than a gaming PC and runs stuff great. So I try to get along with the controller. My day would be MADE if they let you use usb mouse and keyboard on a PS3 though. I would always buy FPS on a PS3 if that happened. I beg the console gaming industry to make it so that folks can choose the controller they want, keyboard/mouse or the regular console controller. Partner up with Razer or something and just do it already!

Consoles are limited in chat methods also. While voice is becoming popular, I still prefer typing sometimes. Just my preference. I don’t care about hearing a bunch of folks over my game noise.

c’mon ppl, mouse is just far more natural than a controller. it takes a 1/10 of a second to make a 180° turn with a mouse and the last time i played with a controller it took about 1 second to make a turn. plus every console game has aim assist and mouse games don’t need it. ask for the buttons, most controllers only takes advantage of 4 fingers in wich 2 of them(the index fingers) have 2 functions and the thumbs have every other function there is in the game… a keyboard takes advantage of all five fingers and each of them has 3 functions, plus the 3 fingers on the mouse that have 4 functions all together. (or more if it is a gaming mouse)and at the end u don’t have to waste one of the buttons for menu and stuff

“W” what exactly are you smoking dude? There is no way a player with a controller can own a mouse and keyboard player. A console owner who consider himself pro would get totally owned by PC player who just started playing for a week.

I am stunned not hear anyone mention adjustable sensitivities available in many FPS games console and PC alike, Now I think it’s about preference. How well you do is your skill level with that game, that gun, that map, that controller or mouse. Now I play the console but I would be damned if it took an age to turn in a 360 circle or to turn 90 degrees. I adjust my sensitivities to cater to my preference to suit my play style and I’ll bet I can line a beat on anyone with a fast enough sensitivity as well as any pro PC gamer.

Here’s what I got to say.
Keyboard and Mouse over Controller ANY DAY!!!
I’ve got Halo:Combat Evolved for the PC.
With the keyboard and mouse i beat it in 1 day (not 24 hours lol)
on normal.
Then started to play on Heroic, got to the 3rd level, Truth and Reconciliation really fast, tho with some deaths cuz i had to get used to being 5 shotted by needlers.

Now..since my bro plays PES 2010 i used his controller to try out Halo on it.
Guess what?
I, CAN’T, KILL, A, GRUNT.
It was so painful to pas the 1st level, PillOfAutumn.
However, before that, about a year ago, my bro brought a PS2 from his friend.
He also brought a bout 10 games.
I tried a FPS(forgot which one, was a CoD one), same shit happened.
Then, i tried something else, God of War, and God of War II, a 3rd person hack ‘n slash.
Guess what?
FUCKING OWNT EVERYTHING!!!
It was so easy, I forgot about the PC xD
I was sad when he had to bring it back tho…
Don’t wanna buy one, gonna buy a PS3 soon, i hope
Yeah, it was different platforms, but i used a controller on both.
What i wanna say FPS is simply better on PC, howerver, games like God of War, or God of War II, I’d say the are better for Consoles.
Also PES is for a controller, no use playing it with a keyboard and mouse.

-Blobman09

Yeah, I prefer PC FPSs. I like the extremely fast paced games the mouse & keyboards provide. I hate having to wait for your character to turn. When using the mouse, if you are only limited by the surface area and the speed of wrist/arm. You can turn up the speed of a joystick, but then you suffer from accuracy.

I played one of those James Bond games on the Wii not too long ago, and that was pretty fun. It would be really cool if they could make an accurate gun-like controller where you could aim it with real “iron sights.” Might save me some money on target rounds

I used to play with this older guy raised on Doom, that used to play UT with only they keyboard (no mouse). Surprisingly, he wasn’t too bad. I don’t know how he did it, lol. He played more tactically instead of relying on pure speed and reaction time. Of course, he would’ve been considered a “camper” if he played online.

@W

What in the world does fluid movement have to do with anything? Be as fluid as you want but when I see you your dead.

Btw I was only a console gamer up until two years ago so I know how to use a controller very well. And I know for a fact that a m/k is better than a controller.

your description of using an analogue stick is a bit flawed but your theory is based in fact: the player relies more on the visual response from the screen. the reason a mouse “seems” easier, is because you are used to using it. I know my younger brother prefers to play FPS with a controller, and playing with him, I am getting much better at it.

there is also an important benefit to using a controller with analogue sticks which you have overlooked, that is picking up the mouse and moving it across the mousepad.

this is seconds of time you could have been actively controlling, and as a tablet user who uses absolute mode, this is needlessly laborious and can cost you a game when you are left scrambling to control your mouse while your controller based enemy remains constantly in control.

a friend used to play Q3A with a mouse and an analogue stick for movement. this analogue movement confused the fuck out of everyone and he owned for the most part.

I am still a firm believer in wireless HMD’s with head tracking. this is the most accurate aiming you could get while remaining in control 100% of the time.

Playing FEAR 2 the other day, I was reminded how far I had come with my command of a dualshock when my girlfriend experienced the same motion sickness that she did with keyboard mouse. control is not the issue, it’s purely a question of playtime and experience.

yeah, with my mouse using on the fly sensitivity and five buttons you would have a chance W. dare to dream fanboi.

i dunno, counterstrike does come close sabre. ever heard of gun games… GG?